Topic: New 3d graphician - Alfisko

Alfisko on February 13, 2011, 06:29:47 PM

Alfisko

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Hello everyone, since I'm new here, let me introduce myself first.

I'm Alfisko, 19 years old, from Czech Republic, my brother is Kulik (CEGUI programmer from IRC), I interest myself in computer graphics (vector - Inkscape, bitmap - GIMP, 3D - Blender) and I like fantasy and RPG games. That's about everything there is that you should know. :-)

I would like to join your team and work on your project, because it looks great, the music is good, there are many active members and I think it needs more graphicians and art.

I am able to design complex levels, cities; model weapons, nature, anything except characters (I haven't tried them yet).

I worked on another freeware project in the past called the-eleventh, a lot of work in the news is from me: http://the-eleventh.com/

You can also check my work on my deviantart page: http://alfisko.deviantart.com

Rocvalley fly-through : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6Vk1QaEd9M

And here's something more:

http://the-eleventh.com/files/images/dust.jpg

http://the-eleventh.com/files/images/rocvalley_house_2_8.jpg

http://the-eleventh.com/files/images/house15_13.jpg

http://the-eleventh.com/files/images/house15_14.jpg

http://the-eleventh.com/files/images/rocvalley_64.jpg

http://the-eleventh.com/files/images/rocvalley_71.jpg

http://the-eleventh.com/files/images/rocvalley_74_normal2.jpg

http://the-eleventh.com/files/images/rocvalley_95.jpg

http://the-eleventh.com/files/images/rocvalley_109.jpg

http://the-eleventh.com/files/images/rocvalley_119.jpg

http://the-eleventh.com/files/images/rocvalley_123.jpg

http://the-eleventh.com/files/images/rocvalley_124.jpg

http://the-eleventh.com/files/images/rocvalley_166.jpg

http://the-eleventh.com/files/images/rocvalley_163.jpg

However, before I join, I would like to say something.
I checked the requirements for 3d models and seriously, I felt like I went back to 2002. :-(

No offense, but if your project is supposed to be good in all aspects, you need to raise the bar and allow more detailed models and more than 10 textures in the whole game. :-(

I read, that you aim for linux users and people with poor software, but I don't think that so many linux users have bad PCs. I guess that in 2 years time, PCs will be much cheaper and affordable.

Thanks for your time and I'm looking forward to checking your replies. ;-)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 07:22:52 PM by Alfisko »
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Psycho on February 13, 2011, 07:36:27 PM
Reply #1

Psycho

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wow , very nice work
I think that you can be very helpful to us
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Lastmerlin on February 13, 2011, 07:44:20 PM
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Lastmerlin

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Hello and welcome Alfrisko !

Your artwork looks great (as far as I can judge that, I am the core programming guy). As I see it, your speciality is architecture, I am sure we have enough work in creating  meshes for environment. Your observation, that we need much more content in this area is correct as well..

Our graphicians will give you more professional feedback and proposals where to start with work.

On the requirements: We have to search for a good compromise here. Relaxing the rules is beeing discussed already. Especially for textures it is almost sure, that there will be some changes soon. For polycount, I am not convinced, that allowing much more polys is required. Some astonishing models I saw were quite low-poly.
On game requirements: Trying to compete with commercial games in terms of graphic quality is a race we can only loose. They spent a lot of money in this department for a good reason. In consequence, we should also make one step back in hardware requirements. We can discuss how big the step back should be. One of our main target groups are linux users. Those seldom have pcs that are tailored to gaming. That means, that the graphics card is usually not up to date. On top of that, getting hardware acceleration working for the latest hardware is still a nightmare quite often. That is why we try to make the game running on weaker hardware. Using advanced features is acceptable, if they can be disabled for owners of old hardware.

Just to give you an idea of what hardware you are facing:
My primary computer has a Radeon 5450 - this should be enough to run the game fluently right now. My secondary computer has an intel 945 GM onboard card - it would be nice if this is enough to run the game *somehow*. You might be shocked, but this is really popular hardware among linux users. They seldom spend 200€ on a graphics card.

One major issue is, that we have no really good graphics programmer so far. Ogre is pretty good as adapting to hardware capabilites. In other words, you can write software that uses new hardware if present, but still runs acceptable on older hardware. I am still hoping for some improvement in this departement, that would also raise our limits in graphics content considerably.

Edit: After some discussions with your brother I got the impression, that poly count is not that critical for performance. Just to clarify: These limits are not the main point. If we see that we can raise them without hurting performance badly, they will be raised. Feel free to provide some meshes for testing issues. However, I stick to the aim that we need to support lower spec hardware. Blizzard can afford requiring, that users buy the latest hardware for their games - we can not. We can still discuss, what *lower spec hardware* exactly means :)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 09:19:57 PM by Lastmerlin »
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kalimgard on February 13, 2011, 10:11:30 PM
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Well, your screenshots are certainly impressive :)

Since you are good with pretty much everything that doesn't move: We could use another twohanded axe (of course, we could us a lot more weapons, but I'm trying not to sound greedy) and since most of the screens contained houses, a bit of variety there surely couldn't hurt us. If you plan to really join the project give me a ring, I can provide you with the models of our houses, so you know the base area. We have a nice system for random object replacement, but to use it we need some content that can actually be replaced with each other ;).

Since most of our levels are made randomly, we have only occasional use for leveldesign. To be honest I think that what I have done in this line so far is pretty much the work of a novice (as in: no elaborate plan but only placing some things and seeing where it goes). So if you have some improvements for existing villages/cities, I'm all ears. The mercenary camp will be replaced by something that really looks like a mercenary camp one day, by the way. Finally there is a dwarfen mine shaft where the next step of the story will take place. This has not yet been made.
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Andreas on February 14, 2011, 12:18:54 AM
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Hello,

very nice work, realy impressive! Im sort of the head graphic gui and a lot of those requirements come fromt me. I actualiy did no computer game before and so my experience an how graphics is influencing the game perfomance is quit limited. The only thing I realy know is, that you don't need much polygons, to make a good looking model. We also use screen resulutions and a standard zoom in the game where details are realy not visible...

But if you think, that we need it and that it will improve the quality of the game, lets give it a try! But I'm shure, you can also do astonishing work in the realm of low poly modeling :).

I agree with kalimguard, we definetly could use some more houses, nice city buildings and ambient stuff.

Welcome in the team and thank you for your trust and time.

Best wishes
Andreas
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Alfisko on February 14, 2011, 01:05:13 AM
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Alfisko

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It's true that you can make a great model with low polycount, but why keep performace on 10%?

Here are some swords for the moment, they are 2 years old and all in .blend, but I guess that isn't the biggest problem? I'll see what I can do about the battleaxe.

Do you really want to have all cities generated? I guess that they should be made exclusively, so they make more sense.

And if you have some free time, please read the ABOUT of our (kulik's and mine) project http://the-eleventh.com/about There are some new ideas

SWORDS: http://www.alfisko.com/dl/Swords.zip
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 01:06:54 AM by Alfisko »
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Lastmerlin on February 14, 2011, 10:18:45 AM
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Lastmerlin

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Please remember, that 10% performance on your graphics card (I assume that your have a good graphics card) might be 50% on someone else's PC. You said that 2002 specs are way to old - I said that requiring 2011's hardware as a minimum would be a grave strategic mistake. Perhaps you should just make a proposal what you expect and provide some testing mesh with the proposed quality. I will make a test scene with a reasonable number of these objects and have a look what the framerate looks like.

On your question about cities: Cities are not generated as well as other regions where story takes place. Our Regions consist of randomly generated maps mixed with prebuild patterns. In the case of cities, the whole region consists of one big pattern, so its essentially prebuilt. The tutorial is such a prebuild region as well, you can easily tell that it is not randomly generated.

On your project: Looks like you have awesome graphic content already - but not a lot of game engine so far. This is somewhat complementary to Summoning Wars. I notice that your expectations about combat, quest and story quality are similar to our aims here. I always like to have a look at the codebase of other projects, hoping to learn from their structure. Can you provide me with an svn repo url or something like that ?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 10:22:27 AM by Lastmerlin »
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Kulik on February 14, 2011, 02:53:38 PM
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I think the "best thing" to do in this case is to establish what is "minimal performance" (no drops below 25 fps?), "optimal performance" (always >60 fps?), etc... Also make a quick narrated (no input required) test scene that would simulate typical game scenario from simple scenes to hard scenes (this would also greatly help to test rendering regressions quickly on wide range of hardware) with detailed statistics displayed at the end (min fps, max, avg, etc...). Then establish what is the least performing hardware you want the game to run on.

Unless these are established, it's hard to say whether the potential tests are passes of failures. It would be wise to have reserves in optimal performance for shadows, more complex shading, postprocessing, etc...

I personally would still "abuse" Ogre's nice LOD facilities and allow 3 model detail settings (it's hard to scale the game for such a wide range of GPUs otherwise). If the topology of meshes is clean, it should nicely regress without extreme UV artifacts without any additional work, if it doesn't for some reason, you can still make a manual LOD. On the character creation screen for example, you can still show the most detailed mesh but in game, you can use LOD 1 or LOD 2 depending on user's settings.

EDIT: The Eleventh has no notable code, I am and was always the only developer of it and even though we've had some smaller tech demos, things didn't progress the way I would have wanted. Right now I am developing an engine for it - svn://svn.czenet.com/Tenuity but it's nowhere near finished. As you said, The Eleventh has a lot of assets whilst Summoning Wars has code but less assets.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 03:46:48 PM by Kulik »
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Andreas on February 15, 2011, 09:20:33 AM
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Maybe also a view words about oure level generator concept:

Citys and other special places are not generated randomly, just the houeses and other assets are taken from a certain amount of buildings of the smae "type" (like cityhouse1, cityhouse2, cityhouse3). On the other hand It is still possible for the level designers to realy fix the disign: I wont this house with this fence and this (!) flower in front ;).

We desided for the possibility, to have the random generator also in the back, to make it more interesting, playing the gae again.

The normal Levels (regions) are generated almost completly by random, but you can put in so called Templates (which are like special places: graveyards, stonehenges and so on) and locations, which can later on accesed by the scriptengin.

The whole concept is not realy dificult, but I think one still needs a litte bit practice to get the full potential out of it.

@Kulik: Im definetly for teh testsceene. I hope we can talk on the next meeting about it.

Best wishes
Andreas
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Lastmerlin on February 15, 2011, 09:20:55 AM
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Ok I will try to get some sort of benchmark written on the next weekend. I assume, that you expect something you can start with one command or click, that runs and exits automatically with some easy to use information ? I am not completely sure what to use, but using the ingame engine is the most obvious option.

@ Alfrisko: I will officially announce you as new teammember this evening or tomorrow. Any objections ?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 09:37:47 AM by Lastmerlin »
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Alfisko on February 16, 2011, 12:16:37 AM
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Alfisko

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Quote from: 'Lastmerlin' pid='1479' dateline='1297758055'

Ok I will try to get some sort of benchmark written on the next weekend. I assume, that you expect something you can start with one command or click, that runs and exits automatically with some easy to use information ? I am not completely sure what to use, but using the ingame engine is the most obvious option.

@ Alfrisko: I will officially announce you as new teammember this evening or tomorrow. Any objections ?


No objections sire! :-)
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fusion44 on February 16, 2011, 11:05:20 PM
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fusion44

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Welcome on board Alfisko :)

Sorry for not being here much this week, I hope next week will be more relaxed :)
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