Summoning Wars Forum
Development => Sound & Music => Topic started by: Dratz-_C on February 26, 2011, 01:36:45 AM
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Hello,
I just bought Wivi band (http://wallanderinstruments.com) and think I might be able to use it to help with some music (just an example of what I did with the trial edition in 2007 http://www.box.net/shared/ptevse9ngp ).
Cheers,
Chris Dratz
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Hey Chris, sorry for the delay. Judging from that demo you definitely seem to know what you're doing and Wivi sounds damn nice. I'd love to have you on board but the question is: do you consider yourself capable of composing in the style we have in mind for the game? As you may or may not know our requirements are quite specific.
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Hey West,
I composed a short, rough concept that I think might sound similar to the style and theme you ask for in the sticky. When I get a favorable opinion about a concept, I will begin to develop it. Here is a link to the flac file: http://www.box.net/shared/mh9e9hlgzy I used your Sonatina Symphony Orchestra for the strings, and Wallander Wivi Band for the brass.
Cheers,
Chris Dratz
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Well it's very short so it's hard to form any real opinion about it. Spontaneously I'd say it sounds maybe a bit too cheerful but that would of course depend on the rest of the composition as well.
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West,
I prefer some spontaneous discussion over going out on a limb and sequencing orphans and tangents, because I feel it results in greater equanimity. I think the cheerful bit is a result of there being an equal ratio of major-to-minor chords, the brisk string elements, and the quick tempo. Do you think that I should up the minor to major proportion, mellow the strings, and/or lower the tempo?
Regards,
Chris Dratz
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I prefer some spontaneous discussion over going out on a limb and sequencing orphans and tangents, because I feel it results in greater equanimity.
I don't even know what you just said, but OK :D
I think the cheerful bit is a result of there being an equal ratio of major-to-minor chords, the brisk string elements, and the quick tempo. Do you think that I should up the minor to major proportion, mellow the strings, and/or lower the tempo?
I think you should try and make the piece longer. I simply can't have a useful opinion about a detached 13 second part. It could be great, it could be awful, I simply don't know. It all depends on what happens before and after it.
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West,
Equanimity means evenness of mind under stress (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/equanimity ).
Thanks for your assessment. I will follow your advice and lengthen the piece.
Cheers,
Chris Dratz
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I don't know anything about music creation, but something strong and powerful can be created after this 13-seconds piece, and it'd sound great at least for me:)
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Hello,
KroArtem, your opinion means a great deal to me, and I thank you for posting it. I feel this way as well. I hope I can deliver on the potential.
I have lengthened the concept with a transposition and, with respect to the brass, adapted the transposition to the appropriate instruments. Here is the concept and its transposition in again the flac format: http://www.box.net/shared/c43r8klfv7 . I am so happy to still be using Wivi Band for the brasswind instruments.
Cheers,
Chris Dratz
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Hm, I've got one idea. What about making it longer (yeah, again :)) and using it as a background music in character selection screen? In fact Sumwars already has a background music in menu/character selection screen, but I think it is possible to randomize it and to launch this song or another. This will add some variety to the music ;)
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KroArtem, West:
Thanks for helping me decide to proceed in developing the concept. I have an idea of what to do next. I'll post when I make progress.
Cheers,
Chris Dratz
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Hey again,
I have added some of a development for the concept. Here it is in flac format: http://www.box.net/shared/o5jlyucrmn . Hopefully I am hitting the mark.
Cheers,
Chris
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This really sounds like spring :) I can imagine when running through parts of the world where no enemies are and green trees wave in the sun this will fit very well.
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hm... this is a very special case. It is nice, but it's quite hectic and I have trouble to combine it with our normal game mode. But it may fit with bigger cities like Dwarfenwall (after the siege is over, of course ;) )
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fusion44, Kalimgard:
Hey,
I am grateful for your discussion. From it I think that it is turning out that this music may be useful later in the game for (an) urban area(s) so I will be happy to continue working on the development. I feel that achieving a scope in the game that includes big city music is important and am enjoying the work.
(However, Kalimgard or anyone else, when there a place where I have done something excessive and/or confusing, please tell me right where it is. I will soberly consider changing it. Change is good. ;))
Cheers,
Chris
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I like the new part with those descending phrases in the strings, very nice.
Keep in mind though that we're aiming for a dark cinematic style here, not classicism or Williamsesque swashbuckling adventure. So if you're going to write an entire piece in this style you've got some serious convincing ahead of you. It depends where and when it will be used, of course, but for general gameplay music (which is what we need the most right now), this is far too classical-sounding. Not saying this couldn't work as a part in a more typically sumwarsy piece, just a word of caution not to go overboard with the classical influences.
And a technical remark: you need waaay more reverb :)
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West, fussion44, and Kalimgard,
I intend to arrange some brass swells to convey mass and power during the descending string/arpeggio. I will use my next available time to add those elements. You may want the music to sound more like "Batman Begins"/"The Dark Night" "Molossus." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm0rtJenZrQ Is this so? Are you saying the that arpeggios should stay when you say you like them? I think the most offending Mozart-over-"Molossus" sounding arrangement is the set of clarinet/bassoon triplets which I added for fun. Maybe replacing the triplets with broad swells is a good way to make progress. Let me know if you think that will help. The brass has a 50%-wet hall reverb, and the Woodwinds have a 70%-wet hall reverb. I was gradually realizing it wasn't enough to match the existing music, hence the increase when I did the Woodwinds. I will increase both the Brass and the Woodwinds to a 100%-wet hall reverb when I next render them. I want to enable you to meet your needs with the music and I at the same time desire the music to tell a good story. Not all of every story is elemental; sometimes the elements in the story compound, as happens with "Corynorhinus," particularly at the 1:58 mark http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-wIg90lagk . I am confident that we can attain both of these objectives with a sufficient amount of time and effort.
Cheers,
Chris
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You may want the music to sound more like "Batman Begins"/"The Dark Night" "Molossus." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm0rtJenZrQ Is this so?
Not exactly like that, but in that general direction, yes. I'd like to stay away from Zimmer's "army of robots" orchestral sound if possible, but I have nothing against lots of driving percussion and big arrangements. E.g. Battle at Dwarfenwall that's currently included in the game.
Are you saying the that arpeggios should stay when you say you like them? I think the most offending Mozart-over-"Molossus" sounding arrangement is the set of clarinet/bassoon triplets which I added for fun. Maybe replacing the triplets with broad swells is a good way to make progress. Let me know if you think that will help.
Like I said, it's hard to have an opinion on miniscule details when I have no idea what the rest of the arrangement will sound like. It's like discussing what type of front door to put in a house that's not even built yet. I think the arpeggios can stay, but if you want to experiment with other options, it's up to you.
The brass has a 50%-wet hall reverb, and the Woodwinds have a 70%-wet hall reverb. I was gradually realizing it wasn't enough to match the existing music, hence the increase when I did the Woodwinds. I will increase both the Brass and the Woodwinds to a 100%-wet hall reverb when I next render them.
Are you saying you apply the reverb after the fact?
I want to enable you to meet your needs with the music and I at the same time desire the music to tell a good story. Not all of every story is elemental; sometimes the elements in the story compound, as happens with "Corynorhinus," particularly at the 1:58 mark http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-wIg90lagk . I am confident that we can attain both of these objectives with a sufficient amount of time and effort.
Definitely. Take your time with the piece, we're not in a hurry.
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West,
Thanks for your detailed reply. In the chat channel I learned of a piece of yours that I might want to copy. I added brass, and emulated your http://www.box.net/shared/qpt8d71qga Main_Theme.mp3, from 8 seconds to 16 seconds in. Are there any other songs that are not in the music folder in the game that you can refer me to?
I use(d) the built in reverb for my wind instruments and put notes in that were long enough to catch the M7 reverb in the samples. Here is my quick shot at it with the brass and the woodwinds in the second half: http://www.box.net/shared/6yh33kx1yz . Here is one with the brass and no woodwinds: http://www.box.net/shared/hgx0yfxkq6 .
Also, I am watching a YouTube video series, The Evolution of Hans Zimmer 1988-2008. This can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4X3qX0SReo . Are there any movies, and more specifically parts of tracks, in there that you want me to emulate when you have time to review them, or if you already have some favorites without looking at the videos?
Cheers
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Thanks for your detailed reply. In the chat channel I learned of a piece of yours that I might want to copy. I added brass, and emulated your http://www.box.net/shared/qpt8d71qga Main_Theme.mp3, from 8 seconds to 16 seconds in.
Great! I think you're heading in a good direction with this piece. The subtle incorporation of the main theme adds some appealing darkness and drama.
One thing that strikes me as weird is the dynamics in the brass; there are really loud notes jumping out among softer notes without any apparent logic.
Just for the sake of experimentation I imported your track into REAPER to get some idea of what it might sound like with some added percussion and a more pronounced reverb. I'm not trying to butcher your composition or anything, this is just a quick & dirty example (http://www.box.net/shared/3akfbua1zx) of what I think would be needed to fit your tune into the general style of the soundtrack. Obviously you don't have to do it exactly like that.
Are there any other songs that are not in the music folder in the game that you can refer me to?
I don't think so... I posted some short snippets long ago, but that was before there was any complete tunes written for the game. I think you should refer to the included music first and foremost if you want to weave some more existing themes into your composition.
Also, I am watching a YouTube video series, The Evolution of Hans Zimmer 1988-2008. This can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4X3qX0SReo . Are there any movies, and more specifically parts of tracks, in there that you want me to emulate when you have time to review them, or if you already have some favorites without looking at the videos?
Cheers
Well, first of all I want you to be you. I don't want you to emulate any other composer, be it Zimmer or anyone else. I mentioned Zimmer as an example of the percussion-heavy dramatic music I think is fitting for the game, as opposed to pure classicism. I'm not trying to persuade you or anyone else to copy his sound. Try composing something that is in the same general vein as the tracks I've already written, while still being yourself.
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West,
Thanks for your thoughts. I have smoothed out the most eccentric brass breath data. Please tell me if you still hear problems with the brass. The flac is here: http://www.box.net/shared/dxbjqv8hit . I switched from a Hall to a Church for more reverb in the brass and will have to repeat this process for the woodwinds. Further, I think the woodwinds will sound better than now when I redraw the flute/oboe CC2 to make it mezzo-forte instead of forte. I will add a complimentary reverb to the strings or increase the length of the notes to include the full M7 reverb tails in the samples. I feel your percussion fits well. I am grateful for your help. (Also, what do you think of Alan Silvestri as a musical influence, specifically if you have seen Beowulf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrkguvGFnrE&feature=channel_video_title and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZygbWvaWeVU&feature=related )?
Cheers
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I think you are approaching reverb the wrong way. What you need to do is create a FX send with a good hall reverb at 100% wetness and then route the different instruments to this single reverb instance, lots on the instruments in the back, less on the ones in front. What host are you using?
Btw, the ambience on the sonatina samples is meant to be complemented with an additional longer reverb, you will never get satisfactory results from relying on the recorded ambience alone.
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West,
Wivi Band has a built-in reverb percentage, spread and pan which I have used so far, though I have not tried to get the reverb, spread and pan right, yet. I am actually using SynthFont to work on one section of the orchestra at a time, while using Audacity for combining the sections. Thanks for clarifying about your SSO samples. My next project on this work will be bringing the reverb in line with your example, which I have read before and am sorry to have forced you to repeat. Sometimes Silvestri can come up with a catchy chord progression such as 0:45 - 1:04 in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrkguvGFnrE&feature=channel_video_title and 1:45 - 2:23 in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZygbWvaWeVU&feature=related .
Cheers
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West,
I have some free time now. It's summer. I am continuing work on the music. I am also using a diagram to place my instruments. It is here: http://www.gammaelectronics.com/images/Symphony-orchestya-layout-with-piano_small.jpg . I have done a preview FLAC of the brass with panning and reverb: http://www.box.net/shared/rg39jxqvei5qournv4bx .
Cheers
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I used the free time I had over the summer for goofing off. Here's what I did before, mixed with the latest 15 seconds of brass. I posted this for anyone keen on hearing what the assembled music sounds like, now. See here: https://www.box.net/shared/3m2z7tlk8jf160myhhj1 .
West, the brass has the reverb and panning; the string and woodwind sections do not. I might look into adding reverb and panning to the woodwinds soon because they have the same WIVI placement engine as the brass. I can avail the 3 sections to you individually so that you can add reverberation to the dry strings (and winds), if you are interested in trying that, temporarily. Also, I would be very happy if you would do the percussion. I would find this help invaluable. It seems to me that you are quite good at it. Am I asking too much?
Cheers
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I can avail the 3 sections to you individually so that you can add reverberation to the dry strings (and winds), if you are interested in trying that, temporarily. Also, I would be very happy if you would do the percussion. I would find this help invaluable. It seems to me that you are quite good at it. Am I asking too much?
Cheers
You're not asking too much, I'd love to do some collab thing! Just send me the three parts somehow and I'll se what I can do. Dry, preferably, and I'll also need to know the exact tempo.
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Hey Chris, how's it going with those stem tracks? :)
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West,
I've let some other things get in the way of progressing on the music. Rather than list them here (hint: games), suffice it to say that I can supply you with the separate tracks, as they are, now. These are 360 beats per minute. The strings are dry, the woodwinds have algorithmic reverberation in a cathedral at a low distance from the Wivi Band plugin, and the brass have cathedral reverberation at a far distance from the same plugin. Wivi Band does algorithmic reverberation pretty well, so I'd like to put the woodwinds in the space that properly corresponds to the brass. Here they are: https://www.box.net/shared/ibi9m33an1osqcdc66h5 .
Cheers
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Hello,
I am working with the programmer of my sequencer to resolve some issues with it that are holding me back on this project. Links to my discussions on the matter are: http://www.synthfont.com/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=19 and http://www.synthfont.com/punbb/viewtopic.php?pid=671 .
Cheers
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Hello Again,
I heard folks are readying a 0.5.8 release that will include new content. My name was inquisitively mentioned in the music category so I was motivated to progress with this track. Here is a loop-ready 64 second song with the percussion and reverberation on the rest of the orchestra. I am now calling the track "Prevail." Let me know if you have a better name.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5239724/Summoning_Wars/Summoning_Wars-_Prevail-_0-7-0-0-_AABG.flac
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5239724/Summoning_Wars/Summoning_Wars-_Prevail-_0-7-0-0-_AABG.ogg
I think while it is still short the quality is good enough to use somewhere. In the future I may record some solo variations to layer over more repetitions of the loop. I migrated my professional sequencer and associated sample library licenses from my parents' computer to my personal computer. Having moved from an adult care home about the size of a dormitory room to an apartment twice the size I have room again to leave my MIDI controller keyboard setup on the stand. Equipped with the right tools, I felt like I could resume the job.
Cheers
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Hello Folks,
As I promised you, here is Prevail version 0.7.0.2 with less reverberation on the percussion so that it better matches the sense of space felt in West's existing music.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5239724/Summoning_Wars/Summoning_Wars-_Prevail-_0-7-0-3-_AABH.flac
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5239724/Summoning_Wars/Summoning_Wars-_Prevail-_0-7-0-3-_AABH.ogg
Cheers
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Very nice! I can imagine this fitting very well to the tutorial.
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Sounds good :D
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Hey Dratz-_C, nice work!
What's up with the super duper low sound quality though? Sounds like 8 bits/11kHz or something like that.
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West,
I'll try to get it sorted out.
Cheers